The teen who won a legal fight for a BSL interpreter in class

11th February 2025

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 146

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- Hello, this is Access All. I'm Emma Tracey. And did you know that the Invictus Games is underway in Canada? It's a multi-sport event for soldiers who have become disabled or who have mental health difficulties. We thought we would just drop in on the game, see what's happening. Rob Shenton is there. Hi, Rob.

ROB- Hello

EMMA- What is the atmosphere like?

ROB- It's been amazing. The support that we're getting from Vancouver and Canadians and the other nations which are here, which there's 26 other nations, is absolutely phenomenal. This is the first hybrid game, so this is the first time they've done winter sports and what they've effectively done is taken out the athletics and track and field and maybe a few other sports to replace it with outline skiing, Nordic, biathlon, snowboarding, skeleton bobsleigh and wheelchair curling. This time I thought “well, Nordic skiing sounds very similar to running and it sounds quite physical.” So for me it's Nordic skiing and indoor rowing.

EMMA- And have you done your competing yet?

ROB- I did Nordic skiing yesterday and I came in the top 20 which is good for me because I'm one of the older competitors so obviously I would have loved to have got a medal but I think the reality is you know you've got to know your limits and accept them which is part of the process of the games really, you know, you accept whether you've got an injury or whatever that actually this is the best I can be and this is the best I am and actually being at their best is brilliant because that will help them in your recovery journey.

EMMA- And how long is it since you started doing those sports?

ROB- Nordic Skiing, I hadn't done it at all until last year.

EMMA- Oh wow!

ROB- So for many of the team, the first time they were on the snow was the day before.

EMMA- Tell me your story. Where did you come from to get to this point where you're at the Invictus Games?

ROB- I wanted to be in the army since I was eight so, you know, it was a dream and I joined the army straight from university. And in 2016 I'd had prolonged difficulties with my mental health and in 2016 I was medically discharged with recurrent depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, which was quite a shock. You know, when your career is taken from under you, it's difficult.

EMMA- And what's Invictus Games doing for your confidence?

ROB- What this is proving to me is, yeah. “You know what, Rob? You can take Nordic skiing, you could never do it before, but you can still do the right preparation and get the right confidence in your own ability to be able to perform well at it. You can't avoid but feel confident and positive about what might lie ahead.”

EMMA- Rob, thank you so much for sharing your story with us on Access All. On with the show.

MUSIC- Theme music.

EMMA- Welcome into Access All from the BBC. We are your one-stop shop for all of your disability and mental health news and stories. I’m Emma Tracey at your service. If you like what you hear and you want to hear more you can subscribe to us on BBC Sounds. And if that’s not good enough and you want to tell us how much you like us you can email [email protected]. You can find us on the socials on Instagram and X @BBCAccessAll. Or you can send us a WhatsApp message on 0330 123 9480. And if you can pop the word Access before the message it makes it far easier for us to find. 

On this episode I have fun with Alex Mitchell, a comedian with a cocktail of impairments who called out Simon Cowell on national television. But first, tell me dear listener what were you doing when you were 16 years old? Were you partying? Were you worrying about whether the person you fancied liked you back maybe? Potentially studying, potentially? Well, Scottish high school student, Niamdh Braid, who is with me in the Edinburgh studio has only gone and taken her local council to court to get the BSL, British sign language support that she needs in class. The National Deaf Children’s Society funded the case and – spoiler alert – Niamdh won the tribunal. The council appealed and that was unsuccessful, so she’s now just waiting for a BSL interpreter to be hired so that she can have the support she needs. Hi Niamdh.

NIAMDH- Hi

EMMA- Hi, very exciting. Are you excited? 

NIAMDH- Yeah, very.

EMMA- BSL is your preferred language, right? 

NIAMDH- Yes.

EMMA- But you’re an absolutely awesome lipreader, and you're wearing your hearing aids today and the studio is quiet and we’re quite close together so we are going to go with English today. And you’re okay with that, aren’t you? 

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- Well, thank you for that. BSL, why is that better for you at school? 

NIAMDH- It’s less tiring, and then it’s also easier because in class the teacher can turn away and face the board to write stuff, or they can walk about the classroom and I can’t locate sound, so if I’m writing something on the paper I’ll have to look up and look around to find where the teacher is to be able to lipread them, so I can miss stuff and wee bits. Whereas if I have an interpreter I know where the interpreter is going to be for the whole class, so if I’m writing I can look up and I don’t have to miss stuff by trying to look around the room to find out where the interpreter is. 

EMMA- What do you think it’s going to be like with an interpreter in class? 

NIAMDH- So much easier. I’m not going to miss anything in class.

EMMA- What do you feel like you’ve been missing so far? 

NIAMDH- I think I’ve been missing quite a bit of learning. There have been quite a few times in class they’ve been talking about stuff and I’ve not had a clue what they’re talking about. 

EMMA- And that must be very frustrating. 

NIAMDH- Very.

EMMA- And how tiring is school for you without an interpreter? 

NIAMDH- Incredibly tiring. So, on long days I’ve been given an exit pass by my guidance teacher because I get really tired and I can’t focus in class. So, with the exit pass it allows me to give myself a time out of class to shut my brain off for five, ten minutes to then be able to go back into class and focus again. But then when I get home I go to my bed at, like, half past 7, 8 o’clock every night.

EMMA- Really?

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- Because you’re so exhausted?

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- And you also love BSL, don’t you. What is it about it that you like so much? 

NIAMDH- I think it’s just a really emotive language. And then you can also use it anywhere: in a noisy environment, through windows, under water. 

EMMA- Yeah, handy. 

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- You’re in a mainstream school, there is a deaf base there which means there’s a few other deaf children at your school. What support have you had at school so far in class? 

NIAMDH- Up until a couple of weeks ago nothing. We always got told that because I was academically achieving the top end of average or average that I didn’t need to access the deaf base because I was accessing my learning fine. 

EMMA- Yeah. So, you’re born deaf, you’ve got a year and a bit left of school now, why did you only start asking for support a couple of years ago? 

NIAMDH- Mum and dad have been asking for support since I was in Primary One. 

EMMA- So, that’s the beginning of primary school? 

NIAMDH- Yeah, the very beginning. And we always got told that because I was academically achieving that I didn’t need to access the deaf base because I was accessing my learning fine, and I’m oral and I can understand spoken English. And obviously mum and dad didn’t know any better at that point; they were just listening to the experts in deaf education and they were like, well if they’re saying that I’m doing okay then I’m obviously doing okay. 

EMMA- So, how did you communicate with your teachers, your classmates? Because you’re really academic, aren’t you, you do really well academically? 

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- How have you managed that? 

NIAMDH- I use my hearing aids in school because I’ve never been given the choice not to use them. 

EMMA- And do they hurt you? What do they do that you don’t like? 

NIAMDH- I don’t know if it’s a case of I don’t like them. Sometimes I just like to take them out and switch off because then it’s less tiring, I can take them out and I can just switch my brain off. And also I would like to be given the choice to use my preferred language…

EMMA- Of course. 

NIAMDH- …to access education, but I’ve never been given the choice. It wasn’t until I was old enough to voice what I needed that we realised that I should be getting it and we shouldn’t just settle for what we’re being told that I’m achieving average. 

EMMA- There are other deaf children in your school and you actually saw someone getting BSL support, didn’t you, at school? 

NIAMDH- Yeah.

EMMA- Is that one of the reasons that you were like, right, I need more than I’m getting? 

NIAMDH- Yeah. And she had a signer in class with her. I just used the signer that period and I remember I went home to mum and I was like, ‘I didn’t realise how much I was missing in class, why am I not getting this support?’ And mum’s like, ‘Right, we’re going to go to the deaf support service’. And so she went to deaf support service with me and we arranged a meeting, and I said, ‘The signed support helped me so much in that one period, why can I not get that for the whole day, every day, every week?’.

EMMA- And what did they say?

NIAMDH- They said that I didn’t need it. 

EMMA- So, can you see their point of view?

NIAMDH- No [laughter]. And then when I went into S4 mum raised a complaint with Fife Council and that didn’t get taken. So, then I decided I wanted to take Fife Council to a tribunal and fight for what I needed. 

EMMA- So, you took them to court under your name, Niamdh Braid took the local council to court? 

NIAMDH- Yes.

EMMA- What was it like? Did you have to be there? How long did it take? What was the tribunal like? 

NIAMDH- It was incredibly stressful. 

EMMA- What sorts of questions did they ask you at tribunal? 

NIAMDH- They asked me just basically questions about my lived experiences, so how it was like in school, how did the technology help me, how much did I struggle, what did I struggle with, sort of just questions along those lines. 

EMMA- So, what I’ve just done to you just now basically? [Laughs]

NIAMDH- Yeah. We had an expert witness for me and she assessed that in a classroom setting with all assistive technologies I only access 70% of what’s been said. 

EMMA- Okay. What about Fife Council’s witness, what did they say? 

NIAMDH- He was very dismissive of my lived experiences. 

EMMA- How did it make you feel? 

NIAMDH- Very frustrated because I was getting told that something that only I could know was wrong. 

EMMA- You won. What did the judge say when you won? Why did they say that you had been successful? 

NIAMDH- They said that they had found that there was unlawful discrimination and that I should be awarded a fully-qualified level 6 BSL interpreter. 

EMMA- And the teachers of the deaf they have to have level 1 and they have to potentially upskill if someone needs it. But level 6 is quite far away from level 1, isn’t it? 

NIAMDH- Yes.

EMMA- So, they granted you a fully-qualified interpreter in class with you. 

NIAMDH- Yes. And then they also said that I should be given access to the deaf base as and when it’s needed. 

EMMA- Right so what happens now?

NIAMDH- Now they have to give me access to the deaf base, the one to one time with a teacher of the deaf and hire a BSL interpreter for me.

EMMA- Right and how long is that going to do you think?

NIAMDH- Hopefully not much longer. I've been given access to the deaf base but that's only been for the past month.

EMMA- Right okay so you've had a bit of access to the deaf base first and the interpreter comes next. 

NIAMDH- Yeah. 

EMMA- I spoke to the National Deaf Children's Society about Niamh's case and they said that they hope it will encourage local authorities to be a bit more flexible in their thinking when it comes to students requests around interpreters and deaf bases. We also reached out to Fife Council. Angela Logue, head of education, told the BBC. “We have been working very closely with Niamdh and her family to meet her needs as identified by the tribunal”. Niamdh, thank you for talking to me. It's a fascinating story. And you told it so beautifully. 

NIAMDH- Thank you. 

MUSIC-

EMMA- Alex Mitchell burst on to the disability comedy scene last year when he wowed Simon Cowell and the other judges on Britain’s Got Talent with jokes about being autistic, having tics and having the condition FND:

[Clip]

ALEX- I was on the bus and this old lady came and [tics] sat next to me, and I started ticking, right, I started ticking and she moved, right, she literally moved. And I thought to myself, excellent [laughs], another victim. I’m so excited [tics]. 

[End of clip]

EMMA- Alex reached the final of Britain’s Got Talent, and since then he’s given up his day job as a primary school teacher to go into comedy full time. Now he’s taking his show Tics Towards Perfection on tour and he’s here to tell me all about it. Hi Alex.

ALEX- Hi, how are you? Are you okay? 

EMMA- I’m good, thank you. It’s lovely to have you in. Is it weird to hear that clip back again? 

ALEX- Yeah, it’s very strange. It feels like a fever dream [laughter], like it’s a very surreal experience, very strange time in my life. But very exciting. That is the first time I’ve listened to it back. 

EMMA- Really?

ALEX- Yeah, it’s very weird being in the telly.

EMMA- Hard to get your head around? 

ALEX- Yeah, very strange, very strange, yeah.

EMMA- And you’re taking your show on tour. It’s called Tics Towards Perfection. 

ALEX- Yes.

EMMA- Why is your show called that? 

ALEX- It’s a real journey of self-discovery really. I try and talk about it in the least pretentious way possible, because you get all these comedians who come on and they talk about it like their show is [tics] the most artsy thing in the world and it’s not. 

EMMA- Except for Chris McCausland who says, they told me to give it a name and I hadn’t written it yet. 

ALEX- Yeah, that’s pretty much where I am yeah [laughter]. But it’s not a piece of theatre. 

EMMA- Okay.

ALEX- I’m going to tell some funny stories and hopefully a couple of witty observations as well. I think throughout growing up I’ve always felt this desire to try and be perfect, have this obsession with this idea of being the best version of myself, the best I can be. It’s for a few reasons really [tics]: I think one is society just tells us that anyway, things like living our best life and through social media and things life has to be brilliant all the time and life has to be perfect all the time. The show is about my obsession with this idea of being perfect, why that’s incredibly difficult to reach, all the sort of impact that’s had on me and my mental health as well, but all the sorts of funny and awkward situations it’s put me in as well. 

EMMA- So, you trying to be perfect and your journey to trying for perfection with, I have to say, a quirky cocktail of impairments, right? 

ALEX- Yeah.

EMMA- An interesting array of disabilities…

ALEX- [Laughs]

EMMA- …which I think really, really inform your comedy and inform the show. You’re not shy about talking about them so let’s talk about them. 

ALEX- Yeah, let’s.

EMMA- What are they? We’ve got…

ALEX- [Laughingly] that is the nicest way anyone’s ever described it, by the way.

EMMA- Oh really? 

ALEX- Yeah.

EMMA- Oh that’s good, I’ll take that. 

ALEX- A quirky combination is nice. One of my friend’s described it as a fine wine and cheese pairing, if the cheese was BabyBel and the wine was tears. I was like, all right mate, thanks for that [laughs]. 

EMMA- That’s a bit harsh. 

ALEX- Yeah, a little bit. But hey, these people make the show what it is [laughter].

EMMA- You know what, this is a disability and mental health podcast so we’re going to go through them and talk about how they feed into your comedy, because they definitely, definitely do. So, dyslexia and dyspraxia, that was an early diagnosis, wasn’t it? 

ALEX- That was an early one, that was when I was a kid yeah. Always very clumsy, I’ve got no spatial awareness, I walk into things all the time. On the way in here today I’ve almost walked into two doors. I was in the lift with Naga Munchetty, I thought I was going to take her out. I was like, I can’t do that, that’s awful [laughs]. 

EMMA- Did you speak to her? 

ALEX- I was too afraid. It’s so weird being here because it is like being in the telly, like, you come into Broadcasting House and you’re like ooh, I know them, I know them, I know them. 

EMMA- And then dyslexia, did that cause you any trouble at school? 

ALEX- Yeah, a lot of trouble at school. I really struggled to read for a very long time. When I write notes for comedy now I use it through apps where it’s transcribed from voice to text, and then I play that back to myself rather than read it a lot of the time because I still struggle with that. I think particularly then when I went into being a teacher as well that’s when I realised how different I was in terms of my reading ability. I sight read everything. 

EMMA- What does that mean? 

ALEX- Sight reading means you remember every word you’ve ever seen. That’s how you learn to read. Whereas the majority of children learn phonetically, so they learn the phonetic sounds, ING -ing, that kind of thing. Whereas I don’t learn like that, or I didn’t learn like that as a child because I just didn’t get it. 

EMMA- Later on then you got diagnosed with a really rare condition called FND. What’s that and what does it mean? 

ALEX- FND stands for functional neurological disorder, and the truth is we don’t know very much about it. It’s to do with the chemical makeup of the brain and it causes different symptoms in different people, but it is a neurological condition similar to things like MS and motor neurone disease as well. But the symptoms that I get that are quite common are I have tics, which is quite obvious, I have a stammer, I also have a postural tremor so I have shakes in my hands, and I get extreme fatigue, and I have muscle spasms at times as well. And so I go through really good periods and really bad periods. I’m in a good spot at the minute, but I do have lulls and things where I can get extreme onset of tiredness but it can hit in, like, a moment. So, I can be literally walking around the house and then be like, I’m going to fall over because my limbs have just given up because I’m suddenly so tired. 

EMMA- Okay. With this quirky cocktail you went and auditioned for Britain’s Got Talent and you did really, really well, you were in the final last year. Why did you audition? 

ALEX- The opportunity came about and I would usually have gone, absolutely not, no way. It’s an immense challenge; I wasn’t sure I was ready for it. But when it came around it was at a point where I had run out of money and I couldn’t afford to do comedy anymore, I couldn’t afford to put the petrol in my car to go to gigs, I couldn’t afford the train tickets to get to gigs, I just couldn’t anymore because it takes a very long time in comedy to actually earn any money. And so I had two options available to me and the options were: I quit comedy because I’ve run out of money, or option two I felt was I quit comedy because I embarrass myself on national television. I thought what’s the better excuse, and so I ended up going down the TV route and doing Britain’s Got Talent. But I went in from [tics] the very early stages where you literally walk in off the street with thousands of people. 

EMMA- But you did. You went all the way to the big live shows. Let’s hear a clip of you performing in front of Simon Cowell and the other judges:

[Clip]

ALEX- And it’s difficult being on all the apps, right, because I can’t address the tics [tics]. I turn up on a first date and it’s the first time they’ve ever witnessed it, so I turn up and I’m like, hi [tics], I’m Alex. 

SIMON- [Laughs]

ALEX- That was not the point to laugh, Simon [laughter]. That has done nothing for your appearance, sir [laughter]. 

SIMON- I know. 

[End of clip]

EMMA- Oh my goodness, that’s really, really funny. Do you remember that? 

ALEX- I was so nervous about doing the show I hadn’t told anyone I’d signed up to do the show, so I’d gone on my own, and so I’d spent the whole day just on my own, in my own head. And I think if I hadn’t been so nervous that adlib where I call out Simon Cowell would never have happened. 

EMMA- Yeah, you just blurted it out your mouth. 

ALEX- Yeah, it was quite right, I’m loving it [laughs]. 

EMMA- And it was an absolute key moment then. 

ALEX- Yeah, I think that’s the moment where it turned and it went from going well to going really well and it was like okay, I’ve got them here. 

EMMA- And what was the public reaction to you being on Britain’s Got Talent during and after? 

ALEX- I was more scared when it came out on telly than when I actually did the performance. And it came out and my phone blew up, like a big star, it was ridiculous. My Instagram following jumped up massively, my DMs were full from people I knew, from everyone I’d ever gone to school with was in my DMs. It was ridiculous. But it was genuinely really positive stuff, and it got picked up by the tabloid newspapers and stuff and social media, and it was genuinely really nice, like the majority of it was lovely.

EMMA- Did you get difficult feedback as well?

ALEX- Yeah. I think the more difficult stuff came when we ended up going to the live shows, and that was more challenging because the live shows the TV audience jumps again; more people watching is always going to marry itself to more people talking about you.

EMMA- So, you were trolled, weren’t you? 

ALEX- Yeah, I was trolled towards the end. After the show, after the final performance I was trolled quite badly. There was someone who disliked it so much they tried to start a petition to get me banned from teaching. 

EMMA- [Gasps]

ALEX- That was my favourite one, because that’s a lot of effort for just saying you didn’t like a joke, [laughs] you know what I mean. 

EMMA- Yeah.

ALEX- So, that was quite a bad one. I mean, I had threats and things coming from that, yeah.

EMMA- I assume the petition wasn’t why you left teaching? [Laughs]

ALEX- Do you not think this is why I’m here? 

EMMA- Well, that’s interesting. So, can we talk about the teaching? 

ALEX- Yeah.

EMMA- So, you were a primary school teacher who’s autistic who has tics, what was that like? How did that make your teaching experience different to somebody else’s, do you think? 

ALEX- People want the dream answer which is, oh it was so hard and it was really difficult to get the kids on board with it. But actually it was harder to deal with the things that adults would say to me than what the kids would say to me? 

EMMA- Like what? 

ALEX- Oh just, you know, the clip you played earlier that’s genuinely true, I was ticking on the bus and the woman got up and moved because she didn’t want to sit next to me just because I was ticking. 

EMMA- Right, okay. 

ALEX- You know what I mean, stuff like that. Whereas kids will ask questions about it, but for them that’s not the most interesting thing about you. In their heads there’s so much more than just oh, he tics or he’s just a bit different to the other teachers. They’re interested in what they want to know. If I’m teaching Year 3s they’re more interested in what my favourite colour is than what tic, [laughs], how I talk. You know what I mean? 

EMMA- Yeah. 

ALEX- The kids got on board with it really, really easily and were really great and really lovely. And kids just need that just to sometimes see someone a bit different because then in their own way when they grow up and realise that they maybe don’t fit in with everyone else or don’t fit in that sort of mainstream of what they’re used to seeing…

EMMA- They remember Mr Mitchell and what you achieved and how he was with them in the classroom. 

ALEX- I hope so, I hope so. 

EMMA- But you said you did want to leave teaching. Why would you want to leave teaching if that was your experience? 

ALEX- I loved actually teaching, I loved being up in front of a class [tics] and I view it very much in the same way that it was to comedy where it’s like my ambition number one is I’ve got to be entertaining, the kids have got to want to be here. 

EMMA- So, it was the admin and stuff that was the…? 

ALEX- Yeah, it was the everything else, the immense pressures of it, everything else you had to go with it. I also worked in schools where some of the children we worked with had difficult lives, stuff was going on at home that no one should have to go through. And emotionally the best teachers are the ones who can go home and turn that off because otherwise it just dominates their whole life, and I struggled to do that. Eventually it took a toll, I was constantly so tired, and I was juggling that and comedy – because comedy’s what I love and I was never going to give comedy up. 

EMMA- and getting diagnosed with FND as well. 

ALEX- And getting diagnosed with FND [laughs], a lot was going on in the space of a couple of years that really changed my perspective on a lot of things. 

EMMA- So, how has that informed your new show? We know why it’s called what it’s called, now that we know a lot more about you and a lot more about your comedy and what makes you tick I was going to say. 

ALEX- Nice, lovely stuff, excellent work [laughs]. 

EMMA- Thank you. What can we expect from your show, which is going to be touring around the UK over the next few months? 

ALEX- It’s a journey of self-discovery. It is about me and about some of the things I have experienced and some of the situations I’ve found myself in for numerous reasons. So, there are lots of funny little stories about again this idea to be perfect means I’ve put myself in certain situations where I’ve very much embarrassed myself in certain ways because I’ve been desperate to be seen to be doing the right thing and it’s gone badly. And also some more observational stuff as well. But really it’s a story of the last few years of my life, of me growing up and how I’ve got where I am, and all the good things about that but also all the bad things about that. 

EMMA- Well, you certainly haven’t embarrassed yourself today, Alex Mitchell. 

ALEX- [Laughs]

EMMA- Where can people find details of your tour? 

ALEX- You can find details of my tour at alexmitchellcomedy.co.uk or through my Instagram @AlexMitchellComedy. Everything’s on social media now. Do that [laughs].

EMMA- Alex, I can’t wait to see the show. 

ALEX- Thank you so much. 

EMMA- Thanks for coming in for a chat. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it. 

ALEX- I’ve absolutely loved it, thank you so much. 

EMMA- Thank you. 

ALEX- Very fun. 

MUSIC-

EMMA- We had so much fun in that interview. What a lovely man. That’s about it from me for this week. Thanks to Niamdh Braid. And thanks to you for listening. Just one week until you hear from me again. Until then, bye bye. 

[Trailer for Newscast]

CHRIS- You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast. 

MALE- Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty. 

CHRIS- We talk to people who are in the news:

FEMALE- You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese. 

CHRIS- We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

MALE- At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody. 

CHRIS- We talk to people who understand what the news means:

MALE- I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

CHRIS- And we talk to the best BBC journalists, asking the most important questions: 

CHRIS- What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos? 

FEMALE- Don’t start me, Chris. 

CHRIS- That’s Newscast from BBC News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news. 

FEMALE- And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

CHRIS- Listen to Newscast every weekday on BBC Sounds. 

CHRIS- I’m glad I asked that. 

FEMALE- I’m very glad that you asked that!